Over 500 protesters plan to converge on New York City during the Dalai Lama’s visit to protest what they call his policy of religious discrimination and human rights abuses.

The protests are organized by the International Shugden Community (ISC) who staged demonstrations earlier this week during the Dalai Lama’s visit to Birmingham, AL and Princeton, NJ.

The protesters say that the Dalai Lama publicly banned a 400-year-old mainstream religious tradition of making prayers to the Buddhist Deity Dorje Shugden. They say he is the responsible for an “aggressive persecution campaign” affecting millions of people worldwide, resulting in suffering and human rights abuses — including the practice of segregation.

The protesters says the people of Shugden faith are refused entry to many businesses. Signs have gone up in shop windows, restaurants and medical facilities in Tibetan exile communities. Banning the practice has become a way for businesses to blatantly discriminate against the small religious sect, the ISC explains.

“The Dalai Lama needs to bring an end to the suffering caused by his sectarianism and religious intolerance. Millions of Shugden Buddhists lived happily with other Buddhists and practitioners of other faiths for centuries until the Dalai Lama’s sectarian ban. With these protests, all we are asking for is the freedom to practice our religion in peace. We do not ask that he likes or practices our religion but that religious freedom should apply equally to all people,” said ISC spokesman Len Foley.

  • Spiderwoman

    Religion certainly seems to be the cause of an awful lot of strife in
    this world. I always assumed that the Dalai Lama was more enlightened
    than most. I guess not. I agree with what the protestors are trying to accomplish.

    • Mick

      The problem is that what the protesters wish to accomplish is to denounce the Dalai Lama in the guise of Human Rights rhetorics. It is a slander campaign that is full if misinformation, lies and distortions. Not any academic expert agreed with their accusation of Human Rights abuses, they rather say that religious rules is not a Human Rights issue. If religious rules were Human Rights issues, also the priests and monks who live in celibacy could run such distorted protests for violating their Human Rights for not being allowed to have sex. The issue is by far more complex and not as the protesters claim it to be.

      • I live in America, not Delhi, and in America people are allowed to stand up to religious leaders, publicly shame them, and denounce then in any way they see fit. That’s what freedom of speech is about. The freedom of religion part is where we don’t stop people form breaking off into small sects and worshipping whatever deity they choose — and we don’t ban people of certain backgrounds from stores, public spaces, eetc based on what choice they make in regards to relgiion.

        I’ve seen plenty of Buddhists discussing these protests recently — and many of them literally have said such protests should be illegal. That goes against all of our freedoms. You can’t ban people from speaking because you don’t like what they say, or say that protests should be banned because your little sect in India doesn’t like what their little sect in New York is doing. Sorry. There is no leader of any religious movement that has transcended scrutiny or criticism.

        Our freedom of religion is not going to change, and these protestors will continue to protest no matter how many times people scream that they’re paid by China. As you can tell, that claim has gotten kind of old without any factual evidence to back it up.

        • Mick

          Freedom of speech in the US doesn’t include to slander others with wrong allegations like Shugden people have been murdered made homeless etc. The protesters can only do this because the Dalai Lama is relaxed with this and doesn’t use legal means to stop this character assassination campaign. Any religious leader can be criticised or failings can be pointed out but there is a huge difference if the failings are untrue or if they are true. Any journalism has a responsibility to not make himself or the own media the platform of bad minded propaganda and behaviour.

          • Freedom of speech in the US includes almost any criticism of a public figure, even the pope!

            That being said, I have not seen anybody accuse the Dalai Llama of anything that you could count as slander. Saying that he has banned and supports a ban is not slander.

            You say, “The protesters can only do this because the Dalai Lama is relaxed with this and doesn’t use legal means to stop this character assassination
            campaign.”

            That is incorrect. The Dalai Lama doesn’t have the political power to stop Americans from protesting. Protests and signs are not considered libel in the US, they are considered free speech.

            A free society gives the people permission. Don’t pretend that the Dalai Lama is being generous when he literally only wields the power of a diplomat.

            He isn’t giving ANYONE permission to do anything in the US.

            If that is what he is teaching his supporters to beliweve — it’s a lie. He’s not omniscient. On American soil, he obeys American law. And we don’t allow religious figures to halt protests, even if the things the protestors say seems “scandalous” or “libelous”

          • Mick

            You seem to misunderstand me. In the above article you give a totally one-sided account of the protests and you quote claims without balancing them or verifying their truthfulness. It is for instance wrong what Foley claims that “Shugden Buddhists lived happily with other Buddhists and practitioners of other faiths for centuries” (and there is more what is not correct). In that way you give those claims a one-sided platform. You are free to do that as I am free to criticise you for that. I didn’t say nor intend to say that the Dalai Lama should stop the protests. They wrongly accuse him of “Lying” (because he has another opinion about Shugden’s nature), being the wrong Dalai Lama (“false Dalai Lama”), “the saffron robed Muslim”, “the worst dictator of our time”, “ruthless”, “cruel”, “evil” (the Dalai Lama didn’t kill, arrest etc anybody nor ordered he to do) …

            If you see the details of the campaign you will see they target the character of the Dalai Lama and that this campaign is not about human rights or religious freedom but that these terms are only used to as a means to attack the Dalai Lama. Attacking the Dalai Lama is also ok. All people have their enemies. But what I see as incorrect is, if you give a one-sided platform to distorted claims.

            Another issue are the formal juridical distinctions between criticism, human rights, and slander. It is clear that US laws mainly protect freedom of speech and value less individual rights of being protected against bullying, slander and stalking etc. However, I don’t think that there are no rights to protect oneself from being bullied, stalked and slandered. However, the Dalai Lama is relaxed in the latter, this is what I wanted to say.

            For an US expert opinion who researches in contemporary Tibetan politics see here: https://www.facebook.com/robbie.barnett.14/posts/10152363825942484?fref=nf&pnref=story

          • Public figures cannot be bullied. You sound like a propagandist.

            It’s not stalking to protest where public figures go and protest them in public. Like I said, in America, this is the right of people. Legally. Slander in America is not a criminal offense, it’s a civil penalty — and when it comes to religion, you cannot prosecute people for “slandering” a deity in the US, ever. The Dali Lama professes to be a reincarnated deity. A deity, as such, cannot be slandered or stalked. he literally cannot control what people say about him in America, ever.

            I would prefer to read a non-Buddhist’s opinion.

            Right now all I can see is people desperately trying to defend a religious leader. It looks like astroturf to me. I don’t think that the Shugden people are saints but not one of the comments from people supporting the Dalai lama has addressed the ban. You claim they claim people are murdered etc. I didn’t see that, so right now it’s YOU claiming they claim things. It’s quite silly.

          • Sonam Zoksang

            You seemed to know nothing about Buddhism and the history of Shugden. I advice you to do your home work thoroughly before you post something. His Holiness the Dalai Lama never banned Shugden practice. He told his followers that he practiced Shugden for twenty years and it was a mistake. He strongly advised his followers to learn from his mistake and not to follow Shugden. Is there something wrong with that?

          • Williwm Herbert

            Nothing , but its bullshit . He did ban the practice ! -http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/dorjeshugden02.php

          • Having so many followers of the Dalai Lama come over here to insult me for writing one article has really soured me on him. His reputation has been ruined by the people he sends to defend him. You are aggressive, condescending and sound like nothing but smear merchants.

          • Williwm Herbert

            This article is %100 true . Go to India or Tibet and you will see how truly bad the Dalai Lama really is . Good luck humanity , I hope the vail’s of ignorance is lifted quickly . I’m sick of all the bullshit .

          • Joanne

            As an American I would like to speak to your points, Hypatia. First, it is absolutely true that in the US, we treasure our freedom of speech and freedom to protest. I think that is true throughout Europe as well. In that regard, these protesters have every right to protest– AND we have every right to object to their protests in the strongest possible terms.

            The facts are that Michael and most of us who object to the protests do so with researched evidence and information on our side. We are open to the truth. On the other hand, the protesters are using hate speech, unsubstantiated claims, lies and extremist language to promote their agendas. When their deceptions are exposed, they show no remorse and continue to spread them. They have published two long diatribes that look very much like KKK pamphlets. In these, they accuse the Dalai Lama of secretly being Muslim and deceiving the world– they accuse him of being the worst dictator in modern history. They accuse him of being connected to Naziism and the Japanese Sarin gas attacks– and accuse him of being responsible for the suffering of Tibetans within Tibet. They put videos on Youtube that are full of wild unsubstantiated claims and blatant lies.

            In addition, the protesters are connected to a high demand group– the NKT– with tactics that resemble Scientology. There is an online NKT survivors group numbering over 1200 and members of this group are reporting real harm from their time within NKT. As an American, I speak out against harm.

            Absolutely, these protesters can protest, it is their right. Absolutely, they can practice whatever religion they please. It is America. The KKK is still well and alive in America. However, the voices of Americans who speak out against wrongs, against hate speech, deception and abuse of power are still stronger than that.

            In that spirit, I object to people maligning an individual who inspires hope, courage, decency and peace throughout the world. If the protesters could substantiate their claims, that would be one thing– however, Amnesty International and the Indian High Courts both found insufficient evidence for their claims of human rights violations. I and others have also investigated their claims and found much to object to.

            It is in this spirit that Mick and I come to these discussions.

          • So you have copies of these brochures? because what I see on the signs they hold is not considered “hate speech” — hate speech is calling people slurs, calling for death of people, saying God hates them etc.

            I watched some videos on youtube from international media sources. They spoke to Uma Thurmin’s father and he laughed at them, refusing to answer a question while he did a lecture meant to sell his self-help book. His self-help books probably make a nice profit by touring with the Dalai Lama.

            Also, how is it that you are all here today, all at once, with these claims? This is the most traffic I’ve had on this article in a while, and I am suprised that you, an American, are friends with somebody with a .pk email address and could come here to help him explain so quickly.

            Another reason this looks like an astroturf campaign to me.

            Also, you should notice that this article merely reports on the fact that they are protesting. So what exactly do you want to refute? you want me to say they did not protest? You want me to interview the Dalai Lama and ask him how he feels?

          • Guest

            So basically, you tell a Facebook group to come and comment on any negative articles and say nice things? LOL now why can I take anything seriously from anyone who comments here?

          • So basically, you tell a Facebook group to come and comment on any negative articles and say nice things? LOL ?

          • Hypatia Livingston

            Here is the thing Joanne. This is just one story I’ve ever written, in my whole life, on anything about Buddhism. Your group calls me a propagandist for writing an article about the protests and you are directing group members to go counteract “negative” information online without regards to the point of view.

            You are propagandists. Similar to the propagandists who work for the Koch brothers or Fox News or a hundred other places that spend money to quash dissent.

            It does not look good. Try a different path, this one won’t win you any affection from the media. We’re not all stupid.

          • Williwm Herbert

            Why because he’s a narcissist – psychopath .

          • Mick, can you explain why a Facebook group is directing people to come over here and leave comments?

          • Mick

            Hi Hypatia, I didn’t ask anybody from any FB group to come and to leave comments. I asked my friend Joanne via email as a American if she can give a comment because I was thinking: I, as a European and ignorant person of US culture, might be really the wrong person to discuss this and the discussion is going to squeeze without having any results but only misunderstandings. In my eyes, she found the right words and images and so from my side I have nothing to add – except that I am sorry if this stressed you in any way. Thank you for the discussion and your engagement.

          • I don’t find it stressful. It’s inauthentic.

            You have a small group that “countertrolls” i.e. goes all over the internet commenting on articles to make the Dalai Lama look good.

            To a non-Buddhist, this appears to be propaganda for your religion. Not a non-American, but a non-Buddhist, and specifically an atheist. I have a feeling your friend cannot begin to to understand the atheist perspective here.

          • Mick

            I can understand that this feels or comes across like “countertroll” but this was not my intention. My intention was to point out the one-sidedness and the unfairness of the whole article. When we got stuck in cultural values I asked my American friend, that’s all.

            To not over stress this issue I won’t make any further comment. It would only over blow the whole issue and gives it more importance than it has. Best wishes.

          • The one-sidedness that you accuse me of, well — the article is about a protest. Was there a protest, or not?

            If I asked you , would you say that yes, people protested?

            The article does not take a side. It just tries to explain WHY people are protesting.

            I have also asked you for copies of the brochures you say call the Dalai Lama Hitler but you ignore these things and continue to say the article is one sided. How can update the article and show the other side if you offer no evidence? Surely you have copies of the hate speech and flyers you accuse the protestors of?

          • Mick

            Hi Hypatia. Your article is fair in so far that you quote and give the viewpoint of the protesters, using the common phrases as “The protesters say” etc. However, the whole article presents just one side of an extremely complex story. And because it presents one side and doesn’t balance the claims (of a religious extremist group) I call this one-sided. I think this is not incorrect, isn’t it?

            I didn’t say that they say that they call the Dalai Lama Hitler. I didn’t read all of their material only some of it and I know it from the past when I followed them. I also didn’t see your request for the copies of the brochures. I cannot even remember that they called the Dalai Lama Hitler.

            But they compared different times their situations with that of the Jews and Len Foley even mentioned the holocaust in one of his videos. Its rather manipulative, suggestive, and insinuating how they do it – except more explicitly statements like those I quoted already “worst dictator of our modern time” “Saffron roved Muslim” or clear misrepresentation of the facts like Shugden is only just a prayer, there have never been any conflicts etc. etc.

            There is some material from 2008 of the group that I read in full. For instance you find a main speech they used to cite aloud during public protests here: http://info-buddhism.com/Western_Shugden_Society_unlocked.html#dictator There you find also the main (lengthily) document as a PDF download. In their recent document “False Dalai Lama” they try to bring the Dalai Lama close to Hitler by different means and they write:

            “In these and many other ways that made Tibetans outcasts from their own already exiled community, the Dalai Lama, in the guise of his government, ministers and associated organisations, introduced a reign of terror against tens of thousands of his own people, making restrictions similar to those imposed on the Jewish people in Germany in the early years of Hitler’s rule.” http://internationalshugdencommunity.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/The_False_Dalai_Lama.pdf

            With respect to the Nazi-Hiter connection they wish to establish, they also wrongly claim the regent of Tibet would have praised Hitler as “King Hitler”. You find a correct translation of the letter by a Tibetologist here: http://info-buddhism.com/Nazis-of-Tibet-A-Twentieth-Century-Myth_Engelhardt.html#SchaeferExpedition

            Since the whole issue is highly complex it might be good to ask an established academic expert. Doing your own research would take years and you need expertise to discriminate reliable from dubious sources.

          • Joanne

            First, I did not say that the Shugden community called the Dalai Lama “hitler”– I said they connected him to Nazi-ism. That is clearly presented in their publication entitled “False Dalai Lama: Worst Dictator in Modern History.” Also in this publication is a conspiracy theory in which the (anonymous) authors connect the Dalai Lama to the Sarin gas attacks in Japan.

            Regarding my other statements, here is a brief summary of those that I wrote to submit to press during the recent protests. I can provide links for all of the claims that I have made. Please notice that in the quote I provide at the end it is clear that this group endorses far more religious extremism than you could attribute to any Dalai Lama follower– as most of us are pretty secular in our attitudes and as the Dalai Lama himself advises his followers against converting to any religion.

            What you need to know is that this group, the NKT, claim to be following a “pure tradition” of Buddhism, one not “tainted” by any other approach or sect. They study from one teacher only. The Dalai Lama on the other hand promotes a broad, non-sectarian approach to Buddhism and also works hard to promote science and secular projects– for example bringing the study of science into the monastic curriculum.

            So here’s what I wrote:

            Protests Against the Dalai Lama—Is There Any Truth in Them?

            Many people in the US are probably confused about the recent protests being staged against the Dalai Lama. They are confused that anyone could be protesting against a world leader who travels so tirelessly simply to promote goodness and decency. So what is this all about?

            The origins of the trouble between the protesters and the Dalai Lama are hundreds of years old and part of a complicated issue over the worship of a particular Buddhist spirit, called
            Shugden, whom the Dalai Lama claims is dangerous and the protesters claim is a benevolent enlightened being. Anyone interested in this controversy can find information on the Dalai Lama’s website.

            As for the protesters’ claims, I find it hugely ironic that the protesters accuse the Dalai Lama of lying. I have been investigating the allegations of this group for some time and I have never before witnessed such a disregard for the truth as they display. I’ve counted many deceptions and unsubstantiated claims on one website alone. And even
            when their claims are clearly shown to be false, they don’t change them. They express no remorse or embarrassment over their deceit. It is quite extraordinary.

            In addition, many of the protesters’ claims regard events that allegedly happened years ago in remote and restricted areas of India. These are difficult to verify or dismiss. As there is no case for religious persecution occurring in this country, one might wonder why the protests are being staged in the US and not in India, a free and democratic country. Perhaps Indians, who know the situation on the ground in India, might see through their allegations too quickly?

            The protesters claim that there is “overwhelming evidence” that Shugden worshippers are being persecuted by the
            Dalai Lama and his followers (in India) and that human rights violations abound. However, in 1998, Amnesty International investigated their claims of religious persecution and found “insufficient evidence.“ And in 2010, the Delhi
            High Court also dismissed the Shugden community’s claims of religious persecution.

            Recently, Len Foley stated to local media in Birmingham that Shugden worshippers are being “killed, attacked
            and refused service in Tibetan communities.” Such claims are totally unsubstantiated. There is no media report, police or hospital report or any other evidence to support such a claim. Given Foley’s track record with other statements, these are likely complete fabrications and lies.

            Foley appears in Youtube videos (called “news releases”) on the International Shugden Community (ISC) website.
            He makes false statements such as the claim that Shugden worshippers are persecuted by not receiving Indian citizenship upon arrival in India from Tibet, when in fact no Tibetan is granted Indian citizenship. He also makes the claim that monks were “forced to live in slums” as a result of the Dalai Lama’s
            restrictions on their Buddhist practice. In fact, the Dalai Lama himself made no such restrictions. It was the result of a democratic referendum and Shugden monks were given their fair share of buildings and land, not slums! Pictures show a thriving community of Shugden monks. The claim that these monks were made homeless is an outright lie that the ISC continues to make again and again.

            On another Youtube video, the ISC insert random footage of a young Burmese monk on his traditional begging round in order to support their claim that Tibetan monks have been made homeless and destitute. On another Youtube video, they show a Tibetan woman in Switzerland weeping because her sister in India cannot buy food to eat because shopkeepers won’t sell to her as a Shugden worshipper. In fact, in the community where this woman’s sister lives, it is Indians and not Tibetans who sell most of the food– and Indians are not concerned about this Tibetan controversy. The woman’s sister would have no trouble buying food!

            Recently the ISC has published an anonymously authored diatribe against the Dalai Lama, entitled False Dalai Lama: Worst Dictator in Modern History. In this, they claim that the Dalai Lama is secretly a Muslim, born to Muslim parents in a Muslim village—and he therefore is a “false Dalai Lama,”
            falsely recognized through a mysterious conspiracy by his Regent. They call him the “Saffron-Robed Muslim.”

            What sources do these anonymous authors cite for these claims? Another anonymous author! (of an obscure text cited by no other writers but themselves and very hard—impossible?—to find!).

            Of course, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being Muslim—unless one is claiming to be a Buddhist monk! And of course, the truth from mainstream historical evidence clearly
            demonstrates that the Dalai Lama was born in to a Buddhist family.

            The protesters are not concerned with truth, however, and hold up banners with photos showing the Dalai Lama in a Muslim taqiyah (which he donned during one of his many interfaith events). This has caused some to wonder if they are trying to incite Islamaphobia?

            And what of the claim that the Dalai Lama is lying? Members of the Shugden community change their minds
            frequently about this. They have made two or three official statements about why he’s lying. The favorite claim is that the Dalai Lama is lying when he says he never “banned” the worship of Shugden. In fact, he never did. He advised his Tibetan followers to stop the practice. Some of them did and some of them didn’t. He spoke in Tibetan and so the English term “ban” is totally irrelevant—it is simply a question of translation and of how far restrictions have gone and who made them. There’s no lie, just a difference of opinion.

            Because the real Dalai Lama is difficult to fault, most of the protesters hold a conspiracy belief that there is a “shadow Dalai Lama” that no one can see, who commits all sorts of
            atrocities and fools the world. Here is an example, from the ISC publication entitled False Dalai Lama: Worst Dictator
            in Modern History, of the type of extremist and bizarre thinking behind the current protests:

            “…from a spiritual point of view there is no one who is more evil than this false Dalai Lama. We sincerely wish for the doctrine of Je Tsongkhapa [a Tibetan Buddhist tradition] to be free from being harmed by this enemy.” (p. 3)

            And:

            “Although Lhamo Dondrub [the Dalai Lama] is a Muslim, throughout his life he has maintained the pretense of being a Buddhist holy being, giving Buddhist teachings that he stole from his root Guru Trijang Rinpoche. In this way he has
            cheated people throughout the world.” (p. 13)

            Statements such as these, which abound in ISC publications and video releases, make one wonder about the purpose and validity of the protests. They wish to portray a sane, reasonable face to the world, a calm complaint of religious persecution
            and human rights violations—but in fact, carry out an agenda themselves that is dishonest, inflammatory and extremist.

          • You did not provide ANY links or FACTUAL evidence in your posting. This one statement of yours sums it up to me:

            “What you need to know is that this group, the NKT, claim to be following
            a “pure tradition” of Buddhism, one not “tainted” by any other approach
            or sect. They study from one teacher only. The Dalai Lama on the other
            hand promotes a broad, non-sectarian approach to Buddhism and also works
            hard to promote science and secular projects– for example bringing the
            study of science into the monastic curriculum.”

            No, I don’t need to do this, because I am not validating which religion is right or wrong. Are we now evaluating which religion is right or wrong? The article is about the protests. This evidence is about he people protesting. This article is not about the Dalai Lama or which religion is correct.

            I refuse to have these circular arguments with you. You are free to believe what you want, but you have not provided me with any factual basis for your arguments other than religious philosophy, which I do not believe in or accept as fact, regardless of how kindly and calmly you explain it. If you want to post links to scholarly publications, fine, have at it. But you have not done so. You have not posted the literature you described or done anything that factually backs up your claims.

            This article is not about the Dalai Lama or which religion is correct. I do not think that either religion is the “good one” but many wars are started by people who want to prove their religion is the only true religion.

          • Joanne

            That one statement was simply to demonstrate religious extremism. Also, I will say that I object to being called a troll simply because I have disagreed with you– such accusations do not generate confidence in your commitment to full understanding and objective truth.

            As I said, I have links to every statement I made– I don’t lie.I am not going to post those links here, however, because I don’t want to contribute to ISC propaganda– as soon as I reference links, they appear below in bright Technicolor.

            Here is the link to my blog in which I document every deception I have found and keep a running tally http://www.noneedfortemples.org I have found over 30 lies, just in a brief investigation.

            If I believed at all in your good will, Hypatia, I would not be concerned about referencing the links, but I see no efforts being made on your part to present or understand a balanced view. In fact, you could easily find the publication I quoted (with page numbers), but obviously chose not to.

          • You cannot merely post something and say “I have found 30 lies” and expect a stranger to take your words as fact and face value. That’s not how it works.

            I did not call you a troll. I called you a “counter troll” which means you follow people around the internet, counter-acting their information with propaganda of your won.

            I am not a Buddhist. It will take me days to look up links that actually credit and cite sources. All the websites I find on this topic are anonymous and appear to belong to the Dalai Lama or Tibet itself.

            You told me you would give me links if I asked, now you say I don’t deserve the links? LOL which is it? So now I have to be worthy in your eyes to get links to information?

            I think you are bluffing

            Also your name is Carolyn, not Janice, and that was YOUR FB page where you were telling people to come here. But you won’t even bother to give me these links to prove your point? Crazy

          • Williwm Herbert

            Wow . Delusional : a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.

      • Williwm Herbert

        Open your eyes Mick . Be careful of wolves in sheep’s clothing .

  • Nobody knows

    So you agree we should support a group with a history of murder, sectarianism and political domination?
    I think you might need to investigate before your knee jerk response. What next; equal rights for paedophiles.nAfter all, everybody’s equal?

    • In America, everybody is equal no matter what religion. If we banned religions that murdered people to claim land and force conversions we wouldn’t have so many Christians in this country

      And actually, pedophiles pretty much have equal rights because everybody is born in America with equal rights. They lose their rights when they commit a crime and go to prison for it.

      All kinds of people are born with equal rights. All colors, all religions, all shapes and sizes. That’s America. 🙂 Sorry it upsets you

    • Hypatia Livingston

      Also — one more thing. I wrote an article. An article does not mean agreement. In America, we also have something called “freedom of the press” .The press is free to report on whatever we choose, and sometimes we don’t even agree with the people we write about.

      I am an athiest. Most religions have murdered people in the name of their Gods or deity. I think that’s sad, and foolish. But who am I to say that one religion is more sad and foolish than another? you have the right to believe and worship who you want imho

    • Guest

      Yes, unfortunately this group of posters are asking they ‘gang’ to come on here and post their opinion pieces. Quite disturbing. Thank you Hypatia for your article and for your comments here. I think you can see that religious freedom is not deemed terribly important to this group of posters. Rose colored glasses towards the Dalai Lama? Perhaps… It is still disturbing.

      • This is really all too unreal lol but thanks for the screenshot

        so much effort put into controlling the narrative lol

        thanks for stopping by

        • D. Cadman

          Yes, this group of posters is quite unreal! Not sure you want a clearer picture of ‘who is who’ re: posters — but here goes(!) for clarity. Odd bunch.

          • LOL they think we are Breitbart. We are anti-breitbart lol.

            So weird. We get trolls like this for our political articles but I never in my life thought I would be inundated with Tibetan Buddhist propagandists defending the Dalai Lama all hours of the day and night.

          • D. Cadman

            Hypathia, Welcome to my world! 🙂 Things will probably get real quiet, real soon now. I sincerely thank you for your article allowing people the opportunity to understand why the protests against the Dalai Lama are taking place. Thank you for your (dare I say!) bravery here. The Dalai Lama has a crowd of extremist which support him.

          • Kelsang Yongdzin

            I thank you for this article and your fortitude in handling all the comments. I am most impressed and grateful.

        • Michael Brown

          Just so you’re aware, Hypatia, most people who post against the Dalai Lama are members of the NKT who have been told the Dalai lama is really bad, and most of the people who post against the NKT are ex-members who are not happy with how the NKT operates. Some have also protested against the Dalai Lama in the past.Everyone else (and there aren’t many) are just hangers on.
          Just for the record, I attended Nkt classes for two years. I came to learn they are a harmful cult. Everybody’s welcome to follow them if they like, but I suggest they keep their wits about them and question the things they are being told.

          • I can’t tell eitehr side apart. Guess what? I am not religious. For all I know the Dalai Lama is BAD. People in religious power often oppress others under the guise of religious belief.

            I am not going to say who the “real” Buddhists are. I can’t even get any pro-Dalai Lama commenters to give me factual links to prove there is no ban. I found an articl form the 1990’s ON THE DALAI LAMA WEBSITE that says there is a bang against Shugden.

            I WILL be following up on this article, because all of this, esp. Uma Thurman’s father trying to recruit Anonymous

          • Michael Brown

            I’ve only seen hundreds of monasteries and dharma centres around the world from India, Nepal, China and Tibet to SE Asia, Australia, Europe, America and Africa. I’ve never seen any evidence of a ban. If there is a ban, who’s banned?

          • And who are you , Michael Brown, that you have traveled all over the world to all of the monasteries? Sounds expensive and like you may be rather high-up?

          • Michael Brown

            Okay hypatia, I haven’t seen them all personally but I am aware they exist. I have seen enough monasteries and dharma centres that worship shugden both I Europe, India and Nepal, to see that people are worshipping shugden and are not banned from doing so. The chinese government actively promotes shugden worship.

  • Guest

    I was really shocked to see the protests and read that the Dalai Lama, a universally respected figure for his preaching of religious tolerance and non-violence, actually opposes the worship of a protector deity praised by the lamas that propitiated it for killing people because they had a different religious orientation.The lama most influential in propagating this protector practice last century  said that all other Tibetan Buddhist traditions are faulty, mistaken and misleading paths that lead to hell and that Shugden would kill any Gelugpa that chose to take teachings from them. “Dorje Shugden is extremely important for holding Tsongkhapa’s tradition without mixing and corrupting it with confusions due to the great violence and the speed of the force of his actions, which fall like lightning to punish violently all those beings who have wronged the Yellow Hat Tradition, whether they are high or low. Many from our own side, monks or lay people, high or low, are not content with Tsongkapa’s tradition, which is like pure gold, and have mixed and corrupted it with the mistaken views and practices from other schools, which are tenet systems that are reputed to be incredibly profound and amazingly fast but are mistakes among mistakes, faulty, dangerous and misleading paths. In regard to this situation, this protector of the doctrine, this witness, manifests his own form or a variety of unbearable manifestations of terrifying and frightening wrathful and fierce appearances. Due to that, a variety of events, some of them having happened or happening, some of which have been heard or seen, seem to have taken place: some people become unhinged and mad, some have a heart attack and suddenly die.”Phabongkha Dechen Nyingpo’s sung ‘bum (collected works) vol 7. p526-527Pabongkha’s student, Trijang Rinpoche, went further and recounted a number of stories where he said Shugden killed Bonpos, Nyingmapas, non-sectarian Gelugpas, government officials and others that did not adhere to a strict narrow and sectarian understanding of Gelug doctrine.It is so surprising to me that the Dalai Lama, a man of peace and religious tolerance should oppose a violent sectarian practice.You might also be shocked by the new shocking expose that bears do indeed shit in the woods.

  • Guest

    I was really shocked to see the protests and read that the Dalai Lama, a universally respected figure for his preaching of religious tolerance and non-violence, actually opposes the worship of a protector deity praised by the lamas that propitiated it for killing people because they had a different religious orientation.
    The lama most influential in propagating this protector practice last century  said that all other Tibetan Buddhist traditions are faulty, mistaken and misleading paths that lead to hell and that Shugden would kill any Gelugpa that chose to take teachings from them. 
    “Dorje Shugden is extremely important for holding Tsongkhapa’s tradition without mixing and corrupting it with confusions due to the great violence and the speed of the force of his actions, which fall like lightning to punish violently all those beings who have wronged the Yellow Hat Tradition, whether they are high or low. Many from our own side, monks or lay people, high or low, are not content with Tsongkapa’s tradition, which is like pure gold, and have mixed and corrupted it with the mistaken views and practices from other schools, which are tenet systems that are reputed to be incredibly profound and amazingly fast but are mistakes among mistakes, faulty, dangerous and misleading paths. In regard to this situation, this protector of the doctrine, this witness, manifests his own form or a variety of unbearable manifestations of terrifying and frightening wrathful and fierce appearances. Due to that, a variety of events, some of them having happened or happening, some of which have been heard or seen, seem to have taken place: some people become unhinged and mad, some have a heart attack and suddenly die.”
    Phabongkha Dechen Nyingpo’s sung ‘bum (collected works) vol 7. p526-527
    Pabongkha’s student, Trijang Rinpoche, went further and recounted a number of stories where he said Shugden killed Bonpos, Nyingmapas, non-sectarian Gelugpas, government officials and others that did not adhere to a strict narrow and sectarian understanding of Gelug doctrine.It is so surprising to me that the Dalai Lama, a man of peace and religious tolerance should oppose a violent sectarian practice.You might also be shocked by the new shocking expose that bears do indeed sh!t in the woods.

    • Ibelieveinliberty

      What a lot of commentators on here fail to understand is the nature of religious freedom and somehow think it is okay to stand in support of ostracising a certain community and abusing their rights just because the Dalai Lama says it’s okay…many people have a cult like mentality towards the Dalai Lama and I as someone who takes human rights issues to heart find it deeply saddening that despite such visible discrimination within the exile community in India a small cult like group is still prepared to defend the Dalai Lama lies. Further it comes as no surprise to me that they seem to dislike the American freedoms so granted by the constitution to defend freedom of religion when they so openly support the silencing of critics and the removal of people who don’t conform to their narrow minded view of what the Dalai Lama approves of.

      The article itself is well written and addresses the actual point, it doesn’t surprise me the army of critics have suddenly appeared. They can physically silencd you in the Tibetan communities if you critic the Dalai Lama, it’s no wonder why his cult is so angry now.

      • michael brown

        Some communities ostracise themselves by their behaviour and beliefs. The sectarian hatred of the shugden cult throughout its history but especially since last century is what led to people rejecting them.
        As it is, anyone is free to worship this sectarian gyalpo spirit if they wish. They have massive new monasteries in India built on land given to the Tibetan exile community. They have monasteries and “dharma centres” in India, Tibet, China, Nepal, Malaysia, Singapore, all over Europe, as well as North and South America. For a ostracised oppressed group they are doing really well. So well that their claims of being oppressed or denied religious freedom is shown to be totally bogus.
        So Diane Cadman and all your aliases, who is banned from worshipping your sectarian gyalpo spirit?

        • D. Cadman

          Michael Brown, LOL — I have posted twice on here under my own name. I am not ‘Ibelieveinliberty’ or anyone else posting on here. You will see my comments above directed towards the journalist Hypathia. Your group did in fact issue a directive to come to this article and post your opinion comments. I suspect you are upset to have been ‘outed’, but that doesn’t give you the right to accuse me of the very thing you and your group are doing here. Good grief!

          • Michael Brown

            Diane Cadman, who is banned from worshipping your sectarian gyalpo spirit?

      • Guest

        your view is rather shallow here and I can’t believe that you beleive in liberty. Seriously check that out yourself or you may make some embarrasing mistakes. Where is this visible discrimination? shops, medical centres. I’ve never seen such things in Tib. exiled communities. If there are then isn’t this the people that are reacting here. I’m certain that DL would not have said ..”..don’t worship Shudgen and yeah don’t let them into your shop, surgeries etc. ban them ahllll..let them DIE!!” that’s crazy assumption. It may not matter now what DLama says – people get on with mis-interpreting things and make wild judgments and cause trouble. It’s so obvious there’s ‘sides’ here on this thread. Why isn’t there suitable dialogue going on? All I’ve seen is people shouting at DL like on this protest, never going for civilized chat. Not many people ‘practice’ their religion – folk are great at parading and shouting about it – not that many live it quietly. Why can’t each side just get on with living quiet religion – surely it would be amazing example of what is possible for human being.

        • Atisha’s Cook

          you’re right, that would be great. we have been asking the Dalai Lama
          for discussion on this issue since 1996; he has always ignored our
          requests. nobody wants to protest the Dalai Lama – it’s like trying to
          tell people Father Christmas is a bad guy! if he would only sit down
          with us and debate the issue reasonably, then there’d be no need to
          protest. these current, strongly-worded, loud protests come after MANY years of quiet protest where we just all sat
          quietly n prayed outside his events. we also sent petitions, letters & requests –
          all of which he just ignored. so we have to get louder. we can’t just accept our faith being wiped out – why should we? so we have to get louder.
          the moment
          he puts in writing, so everyone listens to him: “ok – i disagree and i don’t like this practice myself, but
          everybody is free to follow their own beliefs and ALL THE DISCRIMINATION EVERYWHERE SHOULD STOP.” then we pack up, go home, and practise our faith in
          peace!
          that is all we want.

  • Religious freedom has nothing to do with endless discussions of different religious practices and our opinions of them. It is simply allowing people to do whatever they choose as long as it is not a crime. I am not a murderer, an arsonist or a thug and neither are the vast majority of human beings whether they practice Dorje Shugden or not. I am also not a “criminal in history”, an expression used by the Tibetan authority which sounds so Chinese I begin to wonder whether there is any difference between their world-views at all.

    • Michael Brown

      Of course it does steve, when one protector practice was used to intimidate and threaten others into avoiding free choices of religious practices. The shugden cult was quite explicit in its intention to stop gelugpas from taking teachings from the other sects the shugden followers said were impure and led to hell. Shugden was used to limit other’s religious freedom. If it didn’t do this there would have been no problem.

    • Michael Brown

      Steve, given all the shugden worshipping monasteries and centres in India, Nepal, Tibet, China, Malaysia, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Europe, North an South America and Africa, who is banned from worshipping shugden?

      • Patrick

        Here’s a pic of a sign banning a Tibetan who’s a Shugden Buddhist from entering a building.

        • Michael Brown

          A building? That’s a monastery library, Pat. Are you saying that monasteries should allow anyone in, even those that say their protector will kill the monastery’s inhabitants because they are not ‘pure’ Gelugpas?
          Throughout India you will signs outside of temples or religious buildings stating that they are only for people that follow that religion and are not for those opposed to that religion.

      • Patrick

        another pic showing religious discrimination against Tibetans who are Shugden Buddhists

        • Thank you for dropping these off!

          • Patrick

            Here’s a TV documentary from 2008 showing a Tibetan Buddhist Monk being banned from entering a shop in a Tibetan Settlement in India because he is a Shugden Buddhist. The owner says she has taken a vow not to have anything to do with Tibetans who are Shugden Buddhists. The Tibetan Prime Minister is shown the signs banning Shugden Buddhists from entering shops and he fully supports it.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdTnEnBsneM

          • Patrick

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmn6HYkDsgM Here’s an interview from 2014 with a Tibetan woman who says she and her family were attacked in her home because she is a Shugden Buddhist

        • Michael Brown

          People saying they don’t want shugden worshippers in their shop is not a ban on worshipping shugden, it is a person not wanting people that worship it in their shop. Denying people entry onto your property is quite legal I india. I have been denied entry to a number of places in India on the basis of my race and religion.
          This doesn’t answer the question. Who is banned from worshipping shugden?

          • Hypatia Livingston

            In America, if you posted a sign that said that Shugden worshippers couldn’t come into a store, that would be illegal discrimination.

            I guess human rights mean different things in different places.

          • Patrick

            HI. Sorry Michael I wasn’t replying directly to your point, I was just trying to post on the discussion here and I didn’t know how to do it on an iPhone without ‘replying’ to the last comment in the list which was yours.
            Do you want Tibetans banned from entering a shop in the town they live in because they are Shugden Buddhists? What’s the point? In England there used to be signs in some shops saying ‘No blacks, Irish or dogs’. What do you think about those signs, would you like to see them again in England?

          • This is kind of what I feel. If somebody were to post a sign like this in our Buddhist neighborhoods in the US (for example, Chinatown in New York or in Buddhist book stores) they would end up with a federal lawsuit, because discrimination like this is illegal here.

            in the 1950’s we had something that we called “separate but equal” — black people could worship, but only in black churches. They could eat at restaurants, but only in the back. They could ride buses, but only in the back. And “equal” wasn’t really equal. The schools were falling apart, books were very old, dirty, etc.

            In the US, this kind of discrimination is illegal. No matter if it’s Buddhists or Muslims or Christians.

            And it is illegal because it is generally deemed as unjust or immoral.

          • Patrick

            Unfortunately this religious discrimination is spreading to Europe. If you want to volunteer at the Dalai Lama’s talks in Switzerland you have to sign a form saying you have nothing to do with Dorje Shugden.

          • Patrick

            Here’s the form for volunteering at the Dalai Lama’s talks in Switzerland

          • D. Cadman

            The Dalai Lama’s own palace in India has a sign posted basically telling Shugden Buddhist followers to go away. (Note: Dholgyal is a slur name for Shugden).

          • Michael Brown

            NIce idea to fit it into your our cultural experience, Hypatia, but Tibetan culture is very different. Imposing ideas of equality on foreign cultures is a little chauvinistic when you don’t understand even the basics of the dispute and that the Dalai Lama’s intenton is to end the kind of sectarianism propagated by the shugden cult.
            Your view that the poor shgden worshippers would only get old, dirty and poor facilities is also false. Here are the websites of Shar Ganden and Serpom, two major Shugden worshipping monasteries in India,exactly where the NKT claim there is a ban.
            http://shargadenpa.org/
            http://serpommonastery.org/home1.html
            Not exactly the dirty old buildings you may have been expecting.

          • Tibeten culture is different , therefore I am wrong to say in my culture, that it would be illegal? No. I am explainin to you what discrimination MEANS in English-speaking culture

            What you call “unfortunate” I call discrimination. And if it takes place here in the US, that would end up with civil rights lawsuits. Not based on semantics, but based on how our culture view discriminatory practices and how we define them.

            You are essentially saying that “discrimination is unfortunate” but that nobody has any responsiblity to do anything about it, therefore it is okay .

            I never called the buildings dirty. I said that’s what happened during segregation here in the US.

            So I apologize for saying that the floors would be dirty when its the monks themselves who do the upkeep.

            Why do I have the feeling that you WANT to keep this thread/argument going for days? Do you not have other duties? Or is it just that your goal is to wear down the opposition?

            It seems you all employ a lot of tactics similar to both the CIA and the Chinese communists use. Guilt, Confuse, Distort. Tell peopel they are wrong no matter what. Never even consider what the person is saying. Just condescend as much as possible.

            I will never be able to look favorably on the Buddhist religion after this. I don’t see peace. I seen control tactics and oppression. It’s so sad.

          • Michael Brown

            It’s not about blasphemy, it’s about sectarianism. The Dalai Lama has taken the position he has because shugden has been used as a rallying symbol for violent sectarianism. It’s about stopping violence, not ‘blasphemy’.
            Some things have happened which should not have happened, on both sides of the argument, including the murder of three monks that the Indian police and Interpol say shugden worshippers are wanted for.
            I would agree that discrimination may have happened in some cases but you’ve really got to be aware of the people that are feeding you information are not to be taken at face value. They lied to me and other members of the Nkt for years. I don’t trust them because of what I’ve seen them do.

          • Your approach to counteract negative information about your leader is creepy and make you come across as very controlling and authoritarian.

            It reminds me very much of communism and even seems a bit fascist.

            Please do not send any more Facebook teams over here to comment, ok? I give up. You win. You intimidated me.

          • Michael Brown

            Hypatia, you misunderstand. The Dalai Lama is not my leader. The NKT used to be the buddhist group I attended until I found out about the sexual, emotional and financial abuse perpetrated by the most senior members of the group against their naive followers.
            I left the cult and wanted to find out more about their other claims.
            I learned about the nature of shugden from the writings of the lineage lamas that I was taught were buddhas. I was taught that shugden was a wisdom buddha and totally benign. Then I found all the teachings on murder and death. I was shocked by how the nkt completely misrepresented shugden to draw in naive people to worship it, like me.
            I am still a buddhist but I don’t follow the tradition that the nkt and Dalai Lama. I actually can’t stand to say prayers to Tsongkhapa anymore. I gives me very unpleasant memories. I follow a different tradition, the kind that the Dalai Lama’s teacher said shugden killed but the nkt (who follow the same tradition as the Dalai Lama) conveniently choose to omit from their teaching.

          • The way that you use religion to justify societal rules (i.e. it’s ok/ not illegal to ban the Shugden sect from stores etc because of their sect) sounds very cult-like to me.

            I am an athiest because I think that everyone should treat everyone kindly, without regard to what religions they are or what ethnicity. Religions cause a lot of pain and suffering in the world.

            I look at the Dalai Lama as a man who is weilding his enormous influence and political power to influence people to discriminate.All he has to do is say the word and your whole religion can change into something new. He can outlaw old prayers, he can cut out parts of the texts, etc. The Catholics did the same thing. They censored their books to change the meaning of their religion to influence politics during the World Wars.

            You continue to use your religious beliefs as an argument and bash the Shugden religion as a “Cult” or somehow worse than mainstream Tibetan Buddhism. it’s as if you are unaware that this is a typical pattern for all religions, — to use their religion to claim supremacy or superiority, and then oppress the religion

            I am never going to agree that your version of Busshism is better than all of the other sects that exist in the world. There are 400 million Buddhists in the world, with only a tiny fraction of them Tibetan. If they were to discriminate against Tibetan Buddhists in such a manner, I would sstand up for you in the same way.

            One thing that is saddest to me is that CHina oppresses Tibet in horrible ways, yet you cannot recognize subtle or unspoken forms of discrimination within your own culture That’s a very common element of every society.

            A religion is primarily made up of people — who are flawed, and human, and make mistakes. To overlook that element and pretend to have the perfect religion is just silly. But it’s the way most religions behave

          • D. Cadman

            The only thing Shugden Buddhist want is to be able to practice in peace. The freedom to practice our beliefs alongside, not in place of, others’ beliefs. To not be systematically discriminated against, called names and accused of acts we have not committed. Just normal stuff, really.

          • Michael Brown

            I use the word “cult” in two ways. The cult of Shugden is the system of religious veneration and devotion directed to the single entity, Shugden. The second sense is that the New Kadampa Tradition is a harmful cult in that its leadership abuse its membership for sex, money and excessive amounts of their time and energy. Two “deputy spiritual directors”, Neil Elliot and Steve Wass have been forced to resign once their sexual abuse of their ‘students’ became public knowledge. Kelsang gyatso, the head of the NKT had been told about the abuse sometimes years before action was taken to stop it.
            Members of the NKT have to pay lots of money for teachings and travelling to teachings ( traditionally in Buddhism teachings are not to be sold.) Many are encouraged to give “interest free loans” and are made to fefeel guilty if they ever want their money back.
            Members are told to see kelsang gyatso as an infallible Buddha and not to question anything that happens in the Nkt. Many have been evicted from their centres and told not to return because they are impure of lack faith in the infallible kelsang gyatso.
            Hypatia, you made a lot of the Facebook invitation to take part in this discussion without, it seems, being aware of who was being invited. It was not followers of the Dalai Lama, but ex-members and survivors of the NKT cult. If the NKT, our old teachers spread lies, we will correct them.
            You say you will never agree with that my version of Buddhism is best but I have not said what my version of Buddhism is. I also do not agree it is ‘best’, but it is only the NKT and shugden ‘versions’ that say all other versions are degenerate and lead to hell. You see, in supporting the Nkt cult’s version of events you are supporting the kind of sectarianism and supremacy that is anathema to the Buddha’s teaching.

          • “You see, in supporting the Nkt cult’s version of events you are
            supporting the kind of sectarianism and supremacy that is anathema to
            the Buddha’s teaching.”

            I thought it was creepy to be mobbed by a group of angry Buddhists who seek to control a narrative and are basically NEVER going to stop fighting on this page.

            I don’t believe in Buddha’s teachings, AT ALL. I do not study them or judge them as “good” or “evil” lol. I also do not believe in the Dalaiu Lama, I see him as a human who has been awarded a lot of power through superstitious religious beliefs.

            I am an athiest. I am not sure how I can explain this more bluntly. I think most religions are pretty fictions that teach some good things and that they all have their dark sides. ALL religions cover up their faults and glorify their good qualities. All religions have some members who are corrupt or hypocritical. All religions believe that their form of religion is the only one or the best.

            I support the right to protest, the right to free worship, and the right to speak freely.

            I do not believe in hell and your attempts to demonize me for writing ONE ARTICLE is just baffling.

            Why can’t you move on? I have. I’ve written like 15 articles since this one

          • Michael Brown

            A shop keeper not allowing people in their shop is unfortunate. But it hardly equates to shugden worship being banned.
            What do you think of Pabongkha, Trijang Rinpoche and other lamas that propagated shugden worship saying all other religious traditions are false, lead to hell and shugden attacks and kills gelugpas and others that choose to take teachings from these traditions?
            The sectarianism and division of shugden worship led to others rejecting it and rejecting those that worship it.

          • Patrick

            Hi Michael. I’ve been to lots of teachings on and prayers to Dorje Shugden and I’ve never heard any of those things said. So either your information is incorrect or you are deliberately saying something you know is untrue.
            The other reasons people use to say there is a ban is that the Tibetan government in India has encouraged Tibetans to take a vow not to have anything to do with Tibetans who are Shugden Buddhists, that people can’t work for Tibetan government departments in India if they are Shugden Buddhists, the Tibetan government in India had tried to stop Shugden worship in the major Tibetan monasteries that have been rebuilt in India, that Tibetans are attacked in their home and told to give up their Shugden practice, that people are banned from te Tibetan Youth Congress if they are Shugden Buddhists, that the Tibetan Prime Minister has told children to discriminate against Shugden Buddhists, that a publically funded clinic banned Shugden Buddhists from entering. There could be more reasons, this is just off the top of my head. Cheers, Patrick

          • Michael Brown

            Maybe you should read the teachings of your lineage lamas, Patrick, For a start you could look at the blood thirsty sectarian diatribe of the previous Trijang Rinpoche where he glorifies in the deaths of dozens of people for not following and supporting his own narrow interpretation of Gelug doctrine.
            Shugden worshippers have kindly translated it and made it available to all.
            http://www.dorjeshugden.com/downloads/texts/download-music-delighting-the-ocean-of-protectors/

            Or you could read Pabongkha’s collected works, if you read Tibetan where he says:
            “Dorje Shugden is extremely important for holding Tsongkhapa’s tradition without mixing and corrupting it with confusions due to the great violence and the speed of the force of his actions, which fall like lightning to punish violently all those beings who have wronged the Yellow Hat Tradition, whether they are high or low. Many from our own side, monks or lay people, high or low, are not content with Tsongkapa’s tradition, which is like pure gold, and have mixed and corrupted it with the mistaken views and practices from other schools, which are tenet systems that are reputed to be incredibly profound and amazingly fast but are mistakes among mistakes, faulty, dangerous and misleading paths. In regard to this situation, this protector of the doctrine, this witness, manifests his own form or a variety of unbearable manifestations of terrifying and frightening wrathful and fierce appearances. Due to that, a variety of events, some of them having happened or happening, some of which have been heard or seen, seem to have taken place: some people become unhinged and mad, some have a heart attack and suddenly die.”
            Phabongkha Dechen Nyingpo’s collected works vol VII. p526-527
            So, you’re saying there is no ‘ban’ on worshipping shgden? There is no Tibetan government in India, there is only the Indian government. The Central Tibetan Admininstration meets to discuss and promote greater self-rule of Tibetans in Tibet and to oppose China’s oppression in Tibet, but they are not a government and they make no laws. The Chinese government support and promote the worship of shugden so the aims of the CTA are not shared by the aims of those that worship shugden. The same is true of the TYC. All Tibetans in India live under the laws of India and Indian courts have thrown out the claims of human rights abuses made by the Shugden worshippers.

          • Donkey Hotee

            maybe you should butt out and leave these people to belief whatever they want in peace! you can’t discriminate against an entire sect or denomination just because you think they did some bad things in the past! if you could do that, then i bet your own sect would be banned, along with just about every one on the planet. to mix religions for a moment (& if that offends your precious sensibilities, tough): “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”
            it’s unbelievable that you people seem to think it’s ok to discriminate against those who hold different beliefs from you just because the Dalai Lama said they’re bad! what gives him -or you – the right to be a bigot?

          • Hypatia Livingston

            But here in America, that would be illegal and considered discrimination. I do not really care about if a religion says it is a true religion because I am an atheist. Every religion that has tried to recruit me has claimed to be the one true religion. In America we have hundreds of Christian churches that say awful things about other religions all the time.

            But they cannot refuse service in their stores and businesses to those religions.

            People being banned from stores and other spaces because of who they worship is a problem to me. That’s what segregation IS. That’s what America did to black people and other minorities for years.

            The Shugden people are a minority. How can you not see that you are discriminating? From the outside looking in, it’s very apparent.

  • Kelsang Pagchen

    Dear Hypatia, I just wanted to thank you very very much for your honest and truthful article. As you can see there are many DL fanatics that don’t want to see the truth of his God King. They should know better that it is impossible to win when your opponent is the truth. Best wishes. Much love and prayers, Pagchen